Founder’s Note: Nicole Galli is a rockstar lawyer friend who recently shared her experience with an ADHD diagnosis as an adult. Nicole is no stranger to leadership and making change in the profession and agreed to an interview. The video of the interview is embedded below but you can also read the full transcript too. Note: the original interview was done by video and the transcript was created using Otter. The transcript may not be verbatim and any typos are the result of transcription.
Interview with Nicole Galli Discussing ADHD in Law Practice
Claire: All right, hello, everyone. I am Claire Parsons, the founder of the Brilliant Legal Mind blog. I’m a lawyer, a mindfulness Teacher and Author and a mental health advocate in the legal profession. One of the things I like to do, in addition to talking about mindfulness on the blog, is also to share some stories of attorneys who have been willing to talk about their mental health. And one of the issues that I have been hearing a whole lot about lately and also experiencing somewhat in my own life with my loved ones, is ADHD.
There are a lot of lawyers now talking, in particular about adult diagnosis with ADHD, and many of us may have experienced some of the challenges, or seen loved ones experience the challenges with medication, with the shortages that happened last year. I started talking about some issues recently on one of the groups I was in for lawyers and Nicole Galli, who is with me today. Thank you for being here. Nicole mentioned that she had just experienced some issues relating to ADHD, and she was willing to talk to me about it. So I’m going to do an interview with Nicole to get her some of her story. So thanks for being here, Nicole. I really appreciate it.
Nicole: Thanks for having me. I appreciate you looking at the issue.
About Nicole Galli, Rockstar IP Lawyer and Leader
Claire: Yeah. So first of all, I would like to introduce you to everyone. So can you tell me about yourself? And I really encourage you to just let everyone know just how impressive you are, because I know there’s a tendency of many people to be humble, and I just don’t think it is justified when looking at your bio. So can you tell us about yourself?
Nicole: Sure, thank you. And you’re right, it’s hard to do that, but I’ve been practicing law for over 30 years. I came straight through school. I was an undergrad at the University of Pennsylvania, got my degree in medieval and Renaissance history, which is relevant. I then stayed at Penn and got my law degree. Graduated in ’92 and spent a few years with the firm of Dewey Ballantine, which no longer exists. So you know, Big New York white shoe law firm was there about four years’ then came to join Pepper Hamilton, which is also not exactly existing anymore. Now it’s Trout & Pepper. And I remained there for another 14 years. I was ultimately a partner there.
Left Pepper about 14 years ago, went to a couple of other firms, tried a small firm, tried a regional firm, and ultimately, almost 10 years ago, now, nine and a half years ago, I started my own women owned law firm, and we have six going on, seven attorneys, including myself. And my practice area is primarily litigation–large, complex litigation. And in particular, I sort of stumbled into it while I was at Dewey Ballantine, fell in love with it, and I’ve done it ever since.
My focus is technical litigation. What I mean by that is: I deal with all kinds of cases that have either a scientific or a technical issue, and that typically, and for the first, you know, 20 years or so of my practice was principally patent litigation. I’m old enough that patent litigation was not a thing when I first started practicing. It was very rare. Big firms didn’t do it as hard as that is to believe. And about 10 to 12, years ago, I started to get involved more in trade secret litigation, and I could really see, this was before the DTSA, that that was kind of going to be the way things were going. I’m pretty good at predicting trends, and what I loved about both, or still love about both, is at the time I was doing patent litigation, there are a lot of unanswered questions in the law.
We didn’t have a lot of the standards that are commonplace today. There was no Markman, there were no patent rules, a lot of the things that are just customary, we didn’t know. And we’re seeing that now right in trade secret litigation: there’s a lot of questions that are not yet answered under the DTSA. I like really complicated legal problems, but then I also love really complex technical issues. And I highlighted that I was a medieval and Renaissance history major because I did not have a single qualifying credit that would have allowed me to sit for the Patent Bar. So I come at technical litigation with a questioning mind, open perspective and no preconceived notions whatsoever.
And probably one of the nicest things anyone’s ever said to me professionally was when we did a two week jury trial in a very complicated trade secret case that involved algorithmic trading. This meant big computer, big data trading in the wholesale electricity market, which is a very complicated market. You have to learn both about like computers and algorithms and data analysis and you know, machine learning, all that kind of stuff works, and you had to understand the flow of electricity and how electricity is delivered within the wholesale market. I was questioning the chief technical witness on the other side, who had not one but two PhDs, including one was from the MIT of China. And my client wrote a note to my co-counsel, who is my husband (we were law school classmates) and said, “I think she understands this stuff better than he does.”
And that right there, in some ways, is my ADHD, I love doing a deep dive on something complicated, something difficult, something I don’t know, and learning everything I can about it. I also love solving really complicated problems; like, here’s a legal question, what’s the answer? I don’t know. What should the answer be? One of the hardest things I did was taking the Delaware bar after 20 years of practice. I remember struggling on so many (and this is true even as a kid) of the multiple choice questions. I can’t do multiple choice. It’s like, “but wait, what about this? What about that? What should the answer be?” One of them was like, “would this something or other happen in front of the jury or outside the jury?” I’m like, “I don’t know. It depends. What do you want the answer to be, and who’s the judge?” You know, “I’m sure there’s a rule on this, but doesn’t necessarily matter. We can make an argument.” So, that that’s the good part, I suppose, is that, I can do lots of really hard things and really fun things. The bad part, oh, there’s other bad parts, is it’s exhausting, you know, that kind of thing. And we can talk about those in a minute.
Journey to Diagnosis with ADHD and Impact on Law Practice
Claire: Yeah, and that’s my next question. You’re anticipating me a little bit. So, you know, it sounds like, you know, obviously, you’re a magician in terms of your law practice, and you do a lot of really technical, hard, challenging things, and you had some success with it. But the reason you said you wanted to talk about this is because you said you were diagnosed with ADHD as an adult, and it just kind of shaped your experience. And so without getting too much into, you know, prying into any personal things, can you share, like, what some of the problems were, issues were that alerted you that maybe you need to investigate this further or get some more support.
Nicole: So I wish I could say that it was like recognizing here’s the problem and this is a potential solution, but that’s not really what happened. Lifelong, anyone who knows me knows I very much have a hard time being on time. I was born late. I was I was a month late. I have very much a lot of trouble with that. Folks with ADHD, you will totally feel this. I have time blindness. There is now and not now. I have no idea how long things take. None whatsoever. I mean, I do certain things I can budget really well for clients, because I know how long a project should take. But when I start something, I’ll go down a rabbit hole, and I’ll be like, “Oh, this is interesting. I’m going to go learn more about this thing.” I mean, just you name it, I’m like, “wonder what the answer is there . . . ” And, you know, 20 minutes later, I’ve gone down some rabbit hole that I never intended to be there. So you know that was an issue.
And then the one thing I will say: I was diagnosed with depression, and this is another thing we need to talk about as a profession, because, Lord knows, there’s many of us. I was diagnosed with depression 25 years ago, and I’ve only started talking about it publicly now. It was like going to be the death knell, I think, to my career had I ever said that [publicly]? And it was pretty bad; it was a bad depression. I was functional, but it would take me three hours to get out of bed in the morning, which to me, I didn’t even notice. There are times that life was just really hard, it was exhausting, it was overwhelming. I have two kids. I’m a really devoted mom. I have four cats, a dog. I mean, I have a lot going on my plate, and a husband. You know, I get involved in all kinds of activities. I’ve started and grown to organizations. I just run stuff, right?
So I have always had multiple balls in the air. I can’t not have many balls in the air. So it’s understandable that I’m tired, but this was a level of bone tired that only somebody with ADHD would get where it’s like a total overwhelming shutdown. And there would just be days where it’s like, “Oh, my God, I just need a moment.” And that was just life. For a long time, I ascribed it to the depression, and I think that was a piece of it. In retrospect, maybe it was undiagnosed ADHD, who the hell knows?! And it would come and go; it wasn’t always like that. But I was always doing a ton, so it’s kind of hard to say. And the other thing that was, like, very hard running a household. I’ve always had inordinate amounts of household help, and as a working mom, felt guilty about that, because they like to make working moms feel guilty for having help.
It’s okay if dads do, but moms can’t, and it’s just ridiculous. But I always had to have tons and tons of help, and it was still difficult, like trying to get dinner on the table, especially once my kids were older and teenagers, they’re 20 and 17 now, we didn’t have as much help, and it didn’t feel as justified. But I had a really wonderful business coach who I still work with. She’s amazing. Leslie Hassler. Adore Leslie, and she was one who said to me, this was before, I think, the ADHD diagnosis. She’s like, do you like doing this household stuff? And I’m like, No, not really, no. Kind of don’t. I like to cook when I feel like cooking, but no, I don’t want to cook every day. It’s a thankless job. She’s like, then, why are you doing it? I’m like, “good question.” So we actually have full time help at home, because otherwise it would be a complete shit show in my house.
I say these things because on the outside, I have all my shit together. I do loads of stuff. I’ve been very successful professionally. I do a ton of things outside of my actual job, do great work for my clients, have a big team, you name it. I look like the poster child, two really happy kids who are doing well, like, it’s the poster child for success. But in my house, it can be a bit of a train wreck. So long story short, my daughter was again being evaluated for ADHD. She should have been diagnosed with this in second grade, when her teacher first said, maybe she has it. But of course, they just said it was anxiety, which it probably was as well. And I was going to sessions with her, this was in her senior year of high school, and listening to things she was saying. And one of the things that most resonated was talking about how hard it was to do everything that she did every day, and she did an amazing amount.
You know, fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree and the psychologist was like, you know, that level of exhaustion, that’s not typical, that’s not the way life should be. And that was stunning to me, and that was the moment when I’m like, “really!?” I just figured it was because we were doing so much stuff, you know? I didn’t think that could be not normal. And so I started doing a bunch of research, and I work with her [the psychologist], about three years ago. I’m 56 now, I got diagnosed, went on Concerta, and the exhaustion, I’d say, is the biggest thing that has lifted. It’s not as hard to get from point A to point B in the day as it used to be. And that was the biggest thing, you know. And I tried every mindfulness thing there is. And number one, I couldn’t stick to it because it was boring to me. Probably shouldn’t say that, but it is and it just didn’t quote, “solve the problem.”
What the Legal Profession Needs to Learn about Mental Health
Claire: And mindfulness can be hard. There’s there’s some challenges with it, but you ever want resources and want to talk about that, I think I probably read them all. The thing is, like a lot of people learn mindfulness on their own or from an app and have no community around it, no teacher. And, yeah, that’s going to be really hard, you know, that’s, that’s like trying to learn fitness entirely on your own, or, yeah, prior experience. Mean, that is hard, and that’s, that is what I’m partly trying to change. Um, so in terms of, I think you kind of answered my next question about the impact of the diagnosis, but I’m going to skip to the next one. What is the most important thing that, like you wish the legal profession understood about mental health or ADHD? You can answer that, you know, however, however you like.
Nicole: I would say both because it applies to both. You know, ADHD any kind of neuro divergence, frankly, or, you know, depression or other things, just because individuals might have a condition that fits in one of the categories we mentioned doesn’t mean they’re not successful. Doesn’t mean they’re not competent. Doesn’t mean they’re not valued contributors. Doesn’t mean that there isn’t a role for them to play. It may mean that they need accommodations, they need understanding, they need support. They need a workplace that tolerates difference and actually celebrates it. And if we’re not as a profession, valuing people for what they bring to the table, and instead trying to keep putting people into certain rigid boxes, which I think it does and that’s why I’m an entrepreneur–and have, like, set expectations on people then we’re losing out.
I mean, there’s incredible talent out there, and I think we’re making people miserable, and we’re really hurting people, like we are literally, as a profession, burning people out and hurting them. That’s not okay, it’s not healthy, it’s not okay. And so I think we really, I mean, you know my philosophy, and I heard another big firm, say this, and I’m, skeptical, but my philosophy is, you have to put people first. We’re the product, right? You have to treat your product well, if you want to just put it in the most, you know, crudest term, as a business owner, you got to value the people. Without the people, we don’t have anything. And so that’s not the way our model is set up. It’s just not.
Law Firm Practices that Can Make Positive Change
Claire: Well, one thing I’ll say is, I mean, I’ve seen some variation across firms, and I know that there can be some difference. And because I’ve been at small firms, and now I’m at a much bigger firm, and so there can be difference in scale. So one thing I would ask is, as you’ve got your own firm now, and you’ve got the ability, kind of to do things your way, and I know you’ve been successful with it, and have some great people there. So are there any like practices that, that you do, that you think are particularly supportive in terms of, like putting people first, like putting some teeth behind that idea of putting people first.
Nicole: Yeah, so I think, it’s really, first of all, fundamentally starting from a different mindset. I assume that people want to contribute and do a good job, right? , But I also know that life happens. Honestly, things that make me crazy as a business owner is when my employees thank me for letting them take time off when they’re sick. That should not be something that they feel they have to do, right, and, and I’m like, “you know that you don’t have to thank me for that.” They’re like, “Yeah, but in my prior job. . .” And I know where they’re coming from.
I have horror stories from being a young attorney. You know my dad was dying, and I got a nasty review because I literally left after fully informing the partner as to what was going on and telling him ahead of time I didn’t think I could finish the project because of what was going on, and took the project as far as I could. And it was perfectly fine. There were other people to help. And I got a bad review because I left and went to my father’s death bed. I’m not even making that up. That’s a true story. I mean, he died three days later, and I literally, got a bad review for that reason. And the partner’s like, “Well, my, my mom died when I was young, so I know she should have done something differently.”
Claire: Wow.
Nicole: I mean, it’s not even made up, right? So, it’s really kind of a low bar, it’s a little bit of empathy, you know, the Golden Rule, do unto others like you’d like them to do to you. Honestly, in my experience, it’s really kind of a low bar. Just don’t be an asshole and then beyond that, literally, support people. I mean, invest in people, help people, figure out where people’s strengths are, play to their strengths. I mean, it’s just team 101. People do this in business all the time. I don’t know why we can’t do it in law.
Resources for Lawyers with ADHD
Claire: Be a good human and a good leader. It’s a good recipe for organizations. So in terms of, like, resources or any kind of supports, like, is there anything that you can point to that was particularly helpful to you?You mentioned your coach, and that’s a great one. But like any books. . .
Nicole: I read because, you know, ADHD, I read everything there was to read in a book, whether it was a general ADHD book or for women. I listened to a bajillion blogs. I mean, there’s a lot of material out there. I think everything is written from a certain perspective, and so to me, what was useful was reading a lot. Probably the thing, I think I found most valuable is a couple of Facebook groups, actually, with women lawyers. Not because I’m necessarily getting tips or resources from it—Like, I learned a lot of coping skills. You know, the medication kind of fixed what the coping skills weren’t fixing— but just more knowing I’m not alone, right? Just seeing sometimes the post and being like, “Oh yeah, feel that.” Just knowing that it’s normal, right? Like, having that sense of this is okay, we can do this and be successful. And it’s okay. So for me, that’s actually been the most [helpful], there’s one like “squirrels” or something like that, for real, that’s the title.
Claire: If you can send me any of the links, I can share them in the blog.
Nicole: Yeah, I’ll have to like, go on Facebook and see what they are, and I’ll let you know. But I mean, it’s, it’s just really great, and I am so grateful to the women attorneys who run the group. I mean, they do it as a labor of love. I know they have a Discord where people do body doubling and stuff like that. I haven’t needed those resources. So, I mean, there’s a lot out there, but, I think that’s the only thing I currently do to just kind of have that, “nope, you’re good. Not the only one totally fine,” The other one the other day that really resonated was like, “Yeah, I spent like, you know, 20 minutes looking for like,” I forgot what it was. I think it was her bra, but she was wearing it! Like, that’s not crazy, but it’s funny, or maybe not funny! That hasn’t been me, but I’ve had other things like that, you know, just being able to laugh at yourself and not take it too seriously.
Why Nicole Showed Courage and Share Her Story with ADHD
Claire: So, Nicole, last question, and part of what I am doing with this series is, is trying to help lawyers, you know, feel a little bit more like, not necessarily, that they can go tell the world about their mental health condition or what’s going on, because, unfortunately, I still think there’s a lot well, but, but that they tell someone right, that they can at least talk to someone and get some help. And so the question I want to ask is, and I think a lot of people are afraid to do that, and I know certainly I was before I started doing all this, but why did you agree to participate in this interview? Why was it important to you to share your experience with ADHD and mental health in the profession?
Nicole: Somebody needs to speak out. Part of me is still, like, “how my clients going to take this?” I still have people I answer to, but if somebody doesn’t, and this has always been me, if somebody doesn’t speak out, who’s going to? And if it’s not me, then, who? Right? Somebody has to change the narrative. Somebody has to speak out. And that’s a role that I’ve always been very comfortable with– you know, probably again, because of my ADHD! But also because I think it’s really important to change stereotypes too.. Similar to why I started Women Owned Law, the organization I founded, God could be 10 years ago now, for women entrepreneurs in the law. Women entrepreneurs in the law were seen as failures if they left firms, you know, the stereotype of “oh, you couldn’t cut it.” Well, you try to run a business, honey–it is not for the faint of heart! And I’ve never worked this hard in my whole life as I have until I started my firm and my kids will tell you that it’s been the most rewarding thing I’ve done.
But, but the point I’m making is, you know, we need to change the stereotype. People with ADHD, people with other types of neurodivergence, are not failures. We can be successful. You know, we just do it differently, and differently is okay. And that, to me, is the biggest thing. We talked about this before you started recording: different is not bad. And I think inherently, as lawyers, as a profession, we get anxious when things are different and don’t fit a mold, partially because of what we do, right? We have to follow rules. But you know, whether it’s because I’m a woman, whether it’s because I’m neurodivergent, whether it’s someone who’s of color, someone who’s LGBTQ, somebody who’s different for any reason, first generation, different culture, difference is scary to people, and when things are scary, they try to tamp it down and stop it. But difference is not just okay, it’s really good, and it strengthens us, and it would strengthen us as a profession, and so I’m trying to do my part.
Claire: Well, I think that’s a great answer, and I really appreciate you being. Here, Nicole and chatting with me and thanks to everyone for being here.
Nicole: Thank you.
To watch the video version of the interview with Nicole, check it out on our YouTube channel here:
This interview is part of a series of posts sharing real stories of courage from attorneys willing to talk about mental health. If you are in the legal profession and are interested in sharing your story, please submit a query here.
Want to learn more about mindfulness and compassion? Check out my new book, How to Be a Badass Lawyer, for a simple guide to creating a meditation practice of your own in 30 days. And to share mindfulness with your little one, check out my new children’s book, Mommy Needs a Minute.
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